RomCenter Source Code?

[cron]

Well hello there fellow gamers!

Just came by your site, after having an extremely interesting discussion about clrmamepro, and a few individuals (well, more than a few ) of us on irc were wondering about making RomCenter Open Source.

What are your thoughts on it?

More specifically, what are the thoughts of those who develop and work on this project?

-cron

[cron]

Well, it seems that phpBB 2.0.8 is insistent on keeping me at Guest status... : :roll:

But nonetheless, I would still love to hear your opinions!

-cron

[cron]

Ah ha! Now I'm registered, am I? Make up your mind phpBB 2.0.8!

By the way, is it just me, or does that "lol" up there actually look quite disturbing?

[Ad_Enuff]

Well hello there fellow gamers!

Just came by your site, after having an extremely interesting discussion about clrmamepro, and a few individuals (well, more than a few ) of us on irc were wondering about making RomCenter Open Source.

What are your thoughts on it?

More specifically, what are the thoughts of those who develop and work on this project?

cron,

Personally I am all for it, but its up to Eric the author of RC to make that decision. I personally think it would boost development quite a bit.

CLR is a great program, but I have never liked it's minimalist button only GUI or rather lack of one. But currently CLR's functionality is miles better than RC@s at the moment which is a real shame.

What I want is CLR's functionality with parts of RC's functionality and of course RC's better GUI.

Not sure if Eric woudl like to do that.......it would take some of the control away from him.

[SyNTaXer]

This would be very nice, and maybe a chance to add nice functions to rc, without to spend much time on programming on only one person like now.

[cron]

Personally I am all for it, but its up to Eric the author of RC to make that decision. I personally think it would boost development quite a bit.

I couldn't agree more. What better way to revitalize an already great program, and, in the process, perhaps suggest some improvements?

Not sure if Eric woudl like to do that.......it would take some of the control away from him.

Ah yes. Control. I'll be the first to say it can be quite intoxicating... I too have started my fair share of small projects over the years, and, as Project Lead, I must say I have often enjoyed the privileges granted by that position... However, in the past 5 or 6 years (has it really been that long?), I have also noticed the great advantages offered by relinquishing a small degree of control, especially for the betterment of a project, as a whole.

For me, going Open Source was something I at first couldn't even fathom doing, but, as I began to see its potential, I started to advocate for it quite devoutly.

And I don't say the above very lightly... Lets think about what going Open Source means...

I am a lone programmer. One. And when I write code, regardless of how much talent I may think I have, there is still only one way I am seeing the code: through my eyes. If I encounter a problem, I solve it in a manner, which may seem best to me, but in reality, may be the worst way at programming a solution.

When I review code, I am doing so from my perspective.

When I start to hypothesize about possible bugs in my code, I can only go upon what I am seeing and thinking. And while this might not be so bad for a simple 30-line script or 200-line program, it can get quite daunting for a 12,000 line project.

Now, lets look at the same situations through the perspective of Open Source... No longer am I a single, lone programmer, working on pieces of code, isolated from the intellect and undoubtedly valuable opinions of my peers, but rather, the Leader of a Team of individuals whose intelligence, willingness to contribute, and ideas for improvement probably rivals or even surpasses my own.

Just like in a Closed Source environment, when I encounter a problem, I naturally try to code a solution as best I can. However, if a fellow programmer off in Sweden downloads and reviews that particular piece of code, and devises a faster and much more efficient way of solving the same problem, why not use his solution?

It is this mentality, which sets Open Source apart from any other form of collaboration.

If I have to review 12,000 lines of code for bugs before I make a release, aren't the chances for catching a bug much greater if I have 300 other avid programmers, reviewing the same lines of code with me? One would tend to think so.

Which is why going Open Source can only prove to benefit most projects. Very little control would be lost, and you, Eric, could still lead the project. The only thing you would loose is the chance to make an already great program greater.

Instead of 1 mind toiling away at the keyboard, you will have 50. Instead of 1 mind thinking of, designing and implementing additions, you will have 300 minds all submitting possible improvements. Instead of one mind, you will have many.

Which is why, Eric, I hope you take these suggestions into consideration. The results are real, and the benefits are tangible. And like Ad_Enuff said, its up to you to make that decision. I can only hope you do so wisely.

If you would like to hear more, ask questions, or hypothesize how this potential move to Open Source might occur, I encourage you to post a reply! I've never regretted going Open Source, and I'm willing to bet you won't either.

Knowledge is power, and when knowledge is shared, everyone benefits!

Your enthused Open Source Advocate,
-cron

[cron]

PS: I made that title up. I don't really think there is an official title like "Open Source Advocate".

-cron

[dbjh]

Opening up RomCenter would be quite beneficial to its users, but Eric will most probably loose *all* control. The reason is very simple: Eric doesn't seem to have the time to maintain RomCenter let alone improve it. However, many people would really like to see some long standing issues resolved. As soon as RomCenter is turned into Free Software, Eric won't magically get lots of free time, but people will still want to improve it. If Eric cannot handle all the patches that people send him, or if he is too conservative, the same people will use their right, i.e., start a fork and continue from there.
If Eric would have the time to improve RomCenter he wouldn't loose much control for the simple reason that users tend to stick with official versions of Free Software.

[Logiqx]

Agreed. In the workplace I often find it takes me longer to test, review, and explain the problems with someone elses work than to just do it myself in the first place! Even if peoples intentions are good, they could actually make life harder for Eric. I would imagine that RomCenter is a piece of code where someone without a good overall understanding could easily try to fix one problem but create another.

You also have to appreciate that programmers can be quite passionate about their creations and there is always the worry that someone will abuse your good will and do things with it against your wishes. When it comes down to it, RomCenter is Eric's baby and he isn't obliged to make the source publically available. I am sure that he has considered the pros and cons of going open source. I only released the source for my Amiga programs once I sold my Amiga and knew that I would not work on them again...

Logiqx

[Guest]

I tried to figure out romcenter when I first discovered long ago... And I had delphi on my computer! (figured he might be using delphi or c++ builder) From the perspective of a very amature programmer, I still cannot figure out how he deals with so much data so quickly!

[Wanderer]

I had asked Eric about going opensource some time ago. His reply was a negative one. It's understandable he doesn't want to give-up his source code. Most programmers feel this way. I'm a programmer myself and i really don't like the idea of releasing the source code of some of my programs. I thing it's easier if you decide to start an opensource program from scratch that making an existing program opensource. I wonder how he would feel if a new opensource version of RC was started from scratch. Would he agree with such a move? Would he help in the development process (in any way he liked)? I also wonder if there are enough programmers out there who would be interested (and have the time) to get involved in such a project. It's always easy to say to someone to make his program opensource. Is there enough interest though or the program would be made opensource for nothing?

[dbjh]

And I had delphi on my computer! (figured he might be using delphi or c++ builder)

He uses Delphi.

From the perspective of a very amature programmer, I still cannot figure out how he deals with so much data so quickly!

He doesn't :-) He uses caches. Have a look in your Romcenter/Cache directory.

[dbjh]

I had asked Eric about going opensource some time ago. His reply was a negative one. It's understandable he doesn't want to give-up his source code. Most programmers feel this way.

They don't. They exaggerate. Proof: programmers who write software for a living. They haven't the slightest problem transferring all their rights to their employer. And no, it's not a different thing. I am also a programmer and I know the feeling. However, when someone writes software in his spare time he has of course the right to decide whether to release the source code.

I'm a programmer myself and i really don't like the idea of releasing the source code of some of my programs. I thing it's easier if you decide to start an opensource program from scratch that making an existing program opensource.

What's the (big) difference? Recently I completed a program and released it to the public. It's completed (that is, it's at version 1.0), but it's also Open Source (Free Software). But I am well aware of the emotional attachment one can develop for his own source code.

I wonder how he would feel if a new opensource version of RC was started from scratch. Would he agree with such a move?

Does it matter? He may not feel that happy about it, but what can he do? If he wants to avoid that he could go Open Source.

Would he help in the development process (in any way he liked)?

Are you kidding? :-) He hasn't enough time for RomCenter, so he certainly has no time to help with a RomCenter clone :-)

I also wonder if there are enough programmers out there who would be interested (and have the time) to get involved in such a project. It's always easy to say to someone to make his program opensource.

True.

Is there enough interest though or the program would be made opensource for nothing?

It won't be for nothing. There's always the benefit of spreading information. But I think you're right. Looking at the public visiting these fora, I don't think there are many who are willing or even capable of helping with such a project. It's definitely not a small project.

[edit]
I forgot to mention one thing: Open Source does not mean that anybody gets write access to some kind of code repository. Anybody can modify the source code for themselves and even distribute their modified code, but like I wrote in a previous message, people tend to stick with official versions.

[Wanderer]

I had asked Eric about going opensource some time ago. His reply was a negative one. It's understandable he doesn't want to give-up his source code. Most programmers feel this way.

They don't. They exaggerate. Proof: programmers who write software for a living. They haven't the slightest problem transferring all their rights to their employer. And no, it's not a different thing. I am also a programmer and I know the feeling. However, when someone writes software in his spare time he has of course the right to decide whether to release the source code.

There is a difference. In a job, you are paid by your employer to do something requested by a client and designed by a team of people (which of course may include you), having to adapt you opinions to the needs of the client and other members of the team. I believe all programmers know what that means... When you do something for yourself, you do it the way you like it and you do it because you want to make your life easier or just for fun, not because you're being paid for it (so wou don't have to do it). In most of the cases, you design and implement it alone to fulfill your needs, so you get more emotionally-attached to it.

I'm a programmer myself and i really don't like the idea of releasing the source code of some of my programs. I thing it's easier if you decide to start an opensource program from scratch that making an existing program opensource.

What's the (big) difference? Recently I completed a program and released it to the public. It's completed (that is, it's at version 1.0), but it's also Open Source (Free Software). But I am well aware of the emotional attachment one can develop for his own source code.

There is a big difference. If you decide to start a program from scratch, without having in mind that you wish to make it opensource at some point, you may feel more free to do some stupid things in it (or some very clever ones ) because you'll be the only one to see them. It may not be that easy to release the source code later. You may feel you have to "refine" the code before releasing it. Most of the time, everybody gets bored doing this. Yes, i'm speaking for myself (and a couple of others i know), but i assume i'm not the only one around... On the other hand, when you decide from the beginning to make a project opensource, usually you are prepared to work and think the way an opensource project requires you to.

Would he help in the development process (in any way he liked)?

Are you kidding? He hasn't enough time for RomCenter, so he certainly has no time to help with a RomCenter clone

Well, in such a case, other people would do the programming so he could be a consultant on the project, contribute small parts of code if he felt like it and whenever he liked, or just give his blessing like a good Godfather.

Is there enough interest though or the program would be made opensource for nothing?

It won't be for nothing. There's always the benefit of spreading information. But I think you're right. Looking at the public visiting these fora, I don't think there are many who are willing or even capable of helping with such a project. It's definitely not a small project.

That's for sure...

[RomCenter]

Hi all

Thanks you for all your reply.
Like Wanderer said, he asked me to go opensource some time ago, and I refused.
Open source is surely a great idea (see mame), but the job of the manager of the project change.
I explain : I build romcenter firstly to solve a small problem I had with mame, but very quickly, I got very excited by the idea to share the tool with everybody over the net. This project grew and the motivation also, with the new ideas, with every news sites spreading the word...
That's why I like in this project, and it is still here. Going open source will change all that. I don't think I will find it very funny to explain the source code (there are more than 38 000 lines of code).

- It is not ready for open source release, mostly because it is not 'clean' and not documented as I want it to be.

- The code is not trivial and I even avoid going in some dark part of them (virtual tree view for example).

- I don't have time to spend on the project to fix bug, and I know exactly where to look for them among the 32 sources files. So, I won't have time to explain how I coded the 38500 lines of code for some people to fix these bugs. Some part are really not trivial, I built the main engine during one year and it is heavily object oriented.

- I don't think some people will have enough patience to dig into the almost finished code. When you start a open source project, you have motivated people who want the project to grow. In Rc, all this is allready done. Would you find it fun to spend a month understanding the project to fix a bug in an obscur bootleg snes rom ?

There is one alternative to open source: some part of the project can be out-sourced. I think about that some years ago, and build a plugin system to make all the rom detection process external. It works, but did I find plenty of developpers to do that for me ? No! Just a handfull of them came to me and helped me. (I thank them every day...). A plugin is very easy to develop, you have some samples, you do it in your manner, and in your favorite language. There is no heavy complicated code to understand, and I even provide a test application to validate your plugin.
Anyway, dbjh is the last one still developping (many thanks).
Some features requested such as chd or md5 can be handled only with a plugin.

Some other part of rc have been developped with plugin in mind (compression managment for example).

So, I'm not yet ready to put rc in open source. I'm still interested in development, don't wory, rc is not dead and I fell some more interest in it these days...

[dbjh]

Going open source will change all that. I don't think I will find it very funny to explain the source code (there are more than 38 000 lines of code).

I agree, that's no fun. However, you don't have to explain the source code. Just add a quick note that you don't want to answer questions about the source code and ignore any e-mails that ask for an explanation.

- It is not ready for open source release, mostly because it is not 'clean' and not documented as I want it to be.

That's the standard reason programmers give when explaining why they don't release the source code :-) It doesn't have to be clean or documented!

- The code is not trivial and I even avoid going in some dark part of them (virtual tree view for example).

I don't think anybody is expecting simple code :-)

- I don't have time to spend on the project to fix bug, and I know exactly where to look for them among the 32 sources files. So, I won't have time to explain how I coded the 38500 lines of code for some people to fix these bugs. Some part are really not trivial, I built the main engine during one year and it is heavily object oriented.

The situation is quite simple actually. People who can't figure out how the source code works, won't be able to fix bugs. People who can, will.

- I don't think some people will have enough patience to dig into the almost finished code. When you start a open source project, you have motivated people who want the project to grow. In Rc, all this is allready done. Would you find it fun to spend a month understanding the project to fix a bug in an obscur bootleg snes rom ?

Yes :-) I think the people who asked for the source code didn't expect a simple or small program. To programmers, figuring out how a fellow programmer tackled some problem can be quite interesting. Even when it takes a lot of time.

There is one alternative to open source: some part of the project can be out-sourced. I think about that some years ago, and build a plugin system to make all the rom detection process external. It works, but did I find plenty of developpers to do that for me ? No! Just a handfull of them came to me and helped me. (I thank them every day...). A plugin is very easy to develop, you have some samples, you do it in your manner, and in your favorite language. There is no heavy complicated code to understand, and I even provide a test application to validate your plugin.

I don't want to brag, but the SNES plug-in consist of 2822 lines (2454 lines in .c files, 368 lines in .h files). It wasn't exactly easy either. But that's beside the point. The point is that the plug-in system took some load from your shoulders and made RomCenter a better tool.

Anyway, dbjh is the last one still developping (many thanks).

You're very welcome :-)

Some features requested such as chd or md5 can be handled only with a plugin.

If you give some specification I'm sure there will be people who would like to write such a plug-in. An MD5 plug-in is trivial, because there is source code distributed under an Open Source license that can be used.

Some other part of rc have been developped with plugin in mind (compression managment for example).

So, I'm not yet ready to put rc in open source. I'm still interested in development, don't wory, rc is not dead and I fell some more interest in it these days...

That's good to hear. I mentioned team work in my e-mail to you. So that some people get a copy of the source code and contribute to it. A more open approach would be to release the source code, but not under an Open Source compatible license (I think I will clean myself after I've sent this message...). In that way people get to see the source code, and even contribute code without the right to distribute the source code or binaries. I really really prefer an Open Source compatible license though.
The plug-in system made in essence a part of RomCenter Open Source. This has improved RomCenter. I can't think of a reason why opening up more parts wouldn't continue the trend.

[edit]
I counted the lines of unzip.{c, h} as well. Not anymore.

[Guest]

If anyone is thinking about MD5 support in a plugin, don't... you should go for SHA1 instead. It is more secure and already a standard in data files (thanks to MAME).

Logiqx

[RomCenter]

I agree, that's no fun. However, you don't have to explain the source code. Just add a quick note that you don't want to answer questions about the source code and ignore any e-mails that ask for an explanation.

I can't. I develop the code and I know exactly what I did and why. I have to explain some tricks I use to people who are ready to spend hours and hours on the code. I can't and I don't want to throw the source in the public domain and don't care anymore. This would mean I drop the project.

That's the standard reason programmers give when explaining why they don't release the source code It doesn't have to be clean or documented!

You're right, and this is a never ending task

I don't think anybody is expecting simple code

Sure, that's why I have to be involved in code explanation.

The situation is quite simple actually. People who can't figure out how the source code works, won't be able to fix bugs. People who can, will.

How many people show interest in continuing romcenter development ? And amongs them, how many know the delphi language ? And amongs them, how many have the knowledge needed to understand the code without my help ?
So far, three people show interest into plug in development.
(Note that I'm not disappointed by this, and maybe some facts can explain this (bad communication etc...), but source improvment is way different than plug-in development).

Yes I think the people who asked for the source code didn't expect a simple or small program. To programmers, figuring out how a fellow programmer tackled some problem can be quite interesting. Even when it takes a lot of time.

Ok, you and I are the only persons who will take fun with that
Who asked for the source code ? Are they really asking for it to use it ? or hoping someone else will improve it ?

I don't want to brag, but the SNES plug-in consist of 2822 lines (2454 lines in .c files, 368 lines in .h files). It wasn't exactly easy either. But that's beside the point. The point is that the plug-in system took some load from your shoulders and made RomCenter a better tool.

You're right, the snes plugin is the more advanced plugin developped so far. People interested in development should start from the crc plugin, which is well documented and easy to understand. I still think the plugin system is a good thing for RomCenter. I prefer this approach of the team work. I still keep control in the complex core, and open the independant features to the community.

If you give some specification I'm sure there will be people who would like to write such a plug-in. An MD5 plug-in is trivial, because there is source code distributed under an Open Source license that can be used.

Yes, this could be the first step I will do : communicating on the things developers can do to improve romcenter. Opening a programer forum is a really nice idea.

That's good to hear. I mentioned team work in my e-mail to you. So that some people get a copy of the source code and contribute to it. A more open approach would be to release the source code, but not under an Open Source compatible license (I think I will clean myself after I've sent this message...). In that way people get to see the source code, and even contribute code without the right to distribute the source code or binaries. I really really prefer an Open Source compatible license though.
The plug-in system made in essence a part of RomCenter Open Source. This has improved RomCenter. I can't think of a reason why opening up more parts wouldn't continue the trend.

It's sure it will give me more work, and then, the only things I will do for my project will be... testing changes and fix made by others and compiling and releasing on a regular basis. And you know how programers are ? when they found a bug and fix it, the fix should be available in the next 5 minutes. I don't want to be forced to work on romcenter, and release every now and then patch and fix, it is not my job.

Let's open a development forum for plugins and we'll see how it goes.

[RomCenter]

If anyone is thinking about MD5 support in a plugin, don't... you should go for SHA1 instead. It is more secure and already a standard in data files (thanks to MAME).

Logiqx

Ok. Thanks Logiqx.

[Wanderer]

So, I'm not yet ready to put rc in open source. I'm still interested in development, don't wory, rc is not dead and I fell some more interest in it these days...

That's always good to hear. Does that mean we'll see RC 2.70 final soon?

Yes I think the people who asked for the source code didn't expect a simple or small program. To programmers, figuring out how a fellow programmer tackled some problem can be quite interesting. Even when it takes a lot of time.

Ok, you and I are the only persons who will take fun with that
Who asked for the source code ? Are they really asking for it to use it ? or hoping someone else will improve it ?

Good question. I believe we all know the answer.

[dbjh]

Yes :-) I think the people who asked for the source code didn't expect a simple or small program. To programmers, figuring out how a fellow programmer tackled some problem can be quite interesting. Even when it takes a lot of time.

Ok, you and I are the only persons who will take fun with that ;-)
Who asked for the source code ? Are they really asking for it to use it ? or hoping someone else will improve it ?

:) :) :) :)

Good question. I believe we all know the answer.

Well, I don't :-)
Please note that by keeping the source code closed there is no choice. If someone would like to improve it he can only hack the executable. It wouldn't be the first time that developers are attracted by the availability of the source code. So, the fact that currently there aren't many people showing interest in RomCenter development isn't really a valid argument for not releasing the source code. Perhaps there will be more interest after creating a development forum.

[Wanderer]

Well, I don't
Please note that by keeping the source code closed there is no choice. If someone would like to improve it he can only hack the executable. It wouldn't be the first time that developers are attracted by the availability of the source code. So, the fact that currently there aren't many people showing interest in RomCenter development isn't really a valid argument for not releasing the source code. Perhaps there will be more interest after creating a development forum.

Well, i can't disaggree with that. Maybe you're right. Apart from Eric's decision and just for the sake of curiocity, if there are any developers that read this forum and would be interested in spending their time to help with the development of RC (i'm talking about a commitment here, not simple interest to see the source code and then dump it), please post a comment here.

[Guest]

not sure if you people noticed how fast TIM (tosec's tool) is progressing but i think finding a bunch of extra coders willing to help out with developing romcenter might be smart. AFAIK they're planning on making tim open source as soon as they reach beta status (idling in their dev channel is intersting:-) and with all the attention they're getting (just check their forums!) i can see them taking over romcenter's position as "the second most used" rommanager soon.
In their channel they have been discussing romcenter/clrmame dat support and if i understood correct they already have the code ready so it's just a matter of time 'till they have all the options romcenter had.
I don't want to make it sound as a contest or anything, but i think erik will use a lot of users if he doesn't do anyhitng about the current state

so for my 2 cents: open source: yay!

[Guest]

*need* a lot of *coders if he....

[dbjh]

AFAIK they're planning on making tim open source as soon as they reach beta status (idling in their dev channel is intersting:-) and with all the attention they're getting (just check their forums!)

I just did, because last time I checked their fora the average board member didn't appear that intelligent. It isn't much different now. What "dev channel" are you referring to? An IRC channel?
I find it quite entertaining to hear that TIM will go Open Source. Their fora aren't even accessible (readable) without an account, yet the source code of their (new) tool will be freely available? And to what extent will the code be open? TOSEC's elitist approach caused me to avoid them in the past. I wonder what (if anything) has changed.

i can see them taking over romcenter's position as "the second most used" rommanager soon.

Right... Their tool hasn't even reached beta status.

In their channel they have been discussing romcenter/clrmame dat support and if i understood correct they already have the code ready so it's just a matter of time 'till they have all the options romcenter had.

It's always a matter of time. The question is if the developers of TIM want to spend it on their project.

I don't want to make it sound as a contest or anything, but i think erik will use a lot of users if he doesn't do anyhitng about the current state

so for my 2 cents: open source: yay!

What exactly is the current state?

[edit]
I just tried TIM on a fairly default Windows XP system. It didn't even start. I get some vague Windows message that the application couldn't be initialised properly. I guess it needs some .NET libraries. And you think that is a threat to RomCenter?

[dbjh]

Apart from Eric's decision and just for the sake of curiocity, if there are any developers that read this forum and would be interested in spending their time to help with the development of RC (i'm talking about a commitment here, not simple interest to see the source code and then dump it), please post a comment here.

No sane programmer will commit himself to the development of RomCenter unless he has access to the source code. At least I can't make a decision unless I see it. Eric may be right about the complexity, but currently I can't confirm nor deny that. BTW I don't think many developers will even read this forum. A call for developers should at least be put on the frontpage.

[RomCenter]

I created the developer forum. I will put the basic informations about plug in and language files with source.
Then we'll wee what happen...

[Wanderer]

I created the developer forum. I will put the basic informations about plug in and language files with source.
Then we'll wee what happen...

Ahem.... Eh, Eric, the forum is locked...

[RomCenter]

Yes, I know

I will put the documentation first, and then open it